Terrorist Threat: Yorubaland Infiltrated, Nigeria’s Coast Now in Danger — Prof Albert (Video)

PROFESSOR ISAAC OLAWALE ALBERT, a professor of peace and conflict studies at the University of Ibadan (UI), has warned that terrorist groups operating across Nigeria’s northern and central regions are making progressive movements towards the South-West and Nigeria’s coastal states, describing the development as a serious threat to the country’s security and economy. In this second part of his interview with GBENRO ADESINA, Albert speaks on the Benue crisis, Nigeria’s intelligence-gathering system, the spread of terrorist networks into Yorubaland, the attacks in Oyo and Ondo states, the government’s handling of repentant terrorists and Nnamdi Kanu, and what he believes Nigeria must do to address its security challenges. He also discusses corruption, leadership, meritocracy, governance, and the values he believes could transform the country.

Q: What is it that we don’t know about the crisis in Benue State?

A: I know a lot about the crisis in Benue. I just finished supervising a doctoral student who worked on the Benue crisis. I met several of the Tiv leaders who participated in the Tiv crisis of the 1960s. One of them, a veteran of the war at that time, was our housemaster. Fulani people would drive their animals into our school farm, and we would have conflicts. At that time, conflicts were peacefully resolved. The escalation of the problem we have in Benue today is a problem of poorly managed national conflict. Everybody is not happy with the Federal Government. Everybody is also not happy with the way some of the problems involving the Northern leaders are managed. But we have always had that disagreement in Benue.

Q: Do you agree with the view that intelligence is very weak in Nigeria, which could be contributing to the escalation of insecurity?

A: Intelligence is very strong in Nigeria. I have worked with intelligence people across the world. My closest working relationship with the DSS was at the Institute of Security Studies, which is now the National Institute of Security Studies. At the inception, one of the first directors was Ita Ekpeyong, who later became Director of the DSS. I worked with him at the Institute. I worked with many of the officers. I realised that we are blessed in this country with well-trained intelligence and data managers. In security studies, there is a difference between early warning and early response. It is one thing to collect intelligence, and it is another thing for that intelligence to be used by the political leaders. Our intelligence people may gather information and give it to those who should respond to it, but in most cases, the reports are shredded or, in some cases, presented to the criminals. Security information is supposed to be closely managed. I have heard, in some instances, of people who saw confidential intelligence reports being used to sell groundnuts. You open it and see that this is a confidential report that is supposed to be housed and protected by the state, but it has been thrown onto the streets. Our intelligence people are very strong. In addition to the DSS, which manages this aspect, we have the Directorate of Military Intelligence. All the security agencies in Nigeria have intelligence-gathering units. The question is: what does the government do with the information? If you are a political leader and I tell you, “I have intelligence that terrorists will bomb somewhere tomorrow,” and you dismiss the report, and the place is bombed, it is not me who has to be blamed. You should blame those who are supposed to act. When these people don’t permit the security personnel to act, they can’t act. If you know that a person is coming to bomb a place at 8 a.m., and you need to eliminate the person, you can’t eliminate the person without authority. Some of the operations are very sensitive. If a governor is the person creating the problem, you can’t just interdict the governor without due authority. When those who are supposed to give you that authority are not ready to give you what you need, what do you do? When I see people on television saying the intelligence-gathering system in Nigeria is weak, I accuse them of ignorance. The problem of Nigeria is not with intelligence gathering. It is in using the intelligence to solve the problem. These people who are killing people all over the place, in all the states, people know that they are coming. But if the political will is not there, they will not be prevented. You are in an operation that is supposed to stop them, and the authority is telling you to withdraw. What do you do? They ask you to withdraw. When you withdraw, the problem will occur. Can you blame that on intelligence? No.

Q: What do the attacks in Orire and others in Oyo State portend for the South-West?

A: The attack in Orire is a very worrisome development. It is not the kind of thing we can discuss openly. Across West Africa, the agenda of terrorists is to be able to move to the coastal states. Several frameworks have been put in place by different countries to prevent terrorists from reaching the coastal states. Why are they interested in coastal states? Coastal states have industries and the maritime sector. Once they get that area, they will control your economy. That is the agenda. Many countries in West Africa are working on preventing these people from coming from the North and entering their countries. The Republic of Togo and Ghana are struggling. Most of the battles in these countries are in the North. What they do in these countries is to fight them at the borders and keep them there so they do not enter the country. There is what is called the Accra Initiative of 2017. The Accra Initiative is a broad-based agreement between some of these West African countries to say, “Let us fight together to prevent these terrorists from coming in.” Once they get into any of the countries, they will enter other countries. But we are not lucky in Nigeria as a result of poor management of our problems and as a result of these sloppy statements from Nigerians, even Yoruba people: “Why are you calling them this and that name?” These people have entered Nigeria. They have not just entered; they are making progressive movements towards the coast. So, if terrorists get to the coastal states of West Africa today, it is most likely to be Nigeria first. That is why the whole of Africa is worried about us, but we are not worried about ourselves. These people came in from Lake Chad and the Sahel Corridor. They have successfully penetrated Nigeria. It is no longer a matter of Boko Haram. Boko Haram has merged with bandits. They work with them across Katsina, Kaduna, and Zamfara. They have succeeded in building a new brand called Lakurawa that went to Sokoto. From Sokoto, they went to Kebbi State. From there, they developed another brand called Mamudawa. Mamudawa has pushed into Kwara State. Also, there are different brands of Boko Haram, like Ansaru and others, that have succeeded in pushing and strengthening the problems in Kwara, and now they have moved into Yorubaland. They moved into Yorubaland in two strategic ways. They came to Owo. Owo will provide them with two routes to the coastal states. Owo is already in the Niger Delta because Ondo State is in the Niger Delta. If the terrorists choose to branch into the Niger Delta, they can continue through the Niger Delta and probably get to the oil sector in that corridor. If they really want to move to Lagos from Owo, Lagos is not far away. From Orire, Lagos is not far away. When I listen to people and they speak simplistically about our security problems, I laugh. I say, “Look, we are really playing with fire.” These people are better educated and organised than us. Getting us to organise ourselves to even understand the problems and say, “These are the logical steps we have to take,” is difficult. Once you give people sweets to lick, they have forgotten about the security of their fatherland. They no longer see themselves as Yoruba people again. The present situation is not rosy. Outsiders are worried about us, but we are not worried about ourselves.

Q: Is Yorubaland really infiltrated by terrorists?

A: More than infiltrated. In addition to Orire, I have given you Owo. The Owo people have just been convicted. The Owo case is very symbolic. Ansaru is part of the Owo problem, but what the judiciary has established in Owo is that Al-Shabaab, as far away as Somalia, participated in the Owo attack. It tells you that it is a larger global agenda. What is happening is not just an ordinary problem; it is a larger global agenda. We just pray that our state officials will be able to reason scientifically and manage the problem scientifically. Otherwise, we are not in a good situation at all.

Q: If you were invited to give President Tinubu one hour of confidential advice on Nigeria’s future and security, what would be your top three recommendations?

A: As we are here, we are currently working with the Office of the National Security Adviser (NSA). We have an ongoing DDR project that we are doing. We try as much as possible to be sincere with them. I shared with you the work we did with the police. We are advising them. When you are dealing with national security problems, you have to come from two angles. There is the kinetic and non-kinetic angle. The kinetic angle is to believe you can kill all criminals, which we are increasingly realising is not possible. The non-kinetic approach is to look for peaceful ways of managing the problems. Unfortunately, we have invested too much in the kinetic approach, thinking killing them is the only solution to the problem. But there are different non-kinetic approaches to managing the problems. If I have to see the President, I will advise on scientific approaches for strengthening the non-kinetic approaches. We can’t kill all of them because when you say you want to kill, the more you kill, the more outsiders will join them to make your country ungovernable. Eventually, what these people will do is take over your country. They have taken over Somalia. Somalia has been taken over by terrorists. When the problem in Libya started, we warned. Libya has been taken over. Libya is not going to be the same again. The elimination of Muammar Gaddafi was a big mistake by NATO. How do we save Nigeria? That will be my advice to the President of Nigeria. Part of the non-kinetic approach that one would like to recognise and advise on is good governance. Many of these people who are creating problems have grievances. It is their grievances that outsiders are using to support them. How do we make Nigeria more manageable? If people are always staging public protests, throwing stones every day, it tells you automatically that there are too many unemployed people. For example, you can’t leave your station now to go and throw stones in Bodija Market. If more people are given jobs, they will not be available to go and throw stones in Bodija Market. That is why we are saying that if you manage your country well and people have good jobs, they have things they would lose if they die. They will not want to support troublemaking. Many years ago, we did a study on road accidents and we realised that most of the drivers who drive at uncontrolled speed are people without wives and children. If you left home in the morning and you have your wife and children, when you are driving, you will be looking at your speedometer. But when you know that you have nothing to lose, you don’t care about the passengers you carry. The question is: how do we make more Nigerians have something to lose by not having peace and see themselves having more to gain if there is peace? Look at you here. You employ yourself, and all you are just looking for is for Nigeria to give you an enabling environment to do your work. You don’t want to be governor of Oyo State. You don’t want to be President of Nigeria. But you are saying the little you are doing is enough to put food on your table. So, the question is: to make you more peaceful, how can the Nigerian state support your kind of business? That is what we are looking for. Countries that are peaceful are countries in which people have been sufficiently provided for—a country where leaders don’t steal the kind of money you see them stealing. It is scandalous when you see the kind of money people are stealing in this country, whereas some people can’t feed once or twice a day. Some people are stealing billions and hiding them overseas, making life impossible for millions of others. Yet, these people lead in churches and mosques. I think our God is really very patient.

Q: How fair is the government in the administration of justice in Nigeria when it comes to the concept of so-called repentant terrorists? You pardon terrorists and serial killers and reintegrate them into society, while minor criminals are jailed.

A: Reintegration is a global non-kinetic conflict-management strategy. It is not a Nigerian model. It is done all over the world. It is called disarmament, demobilisation, reintegration and rehabilitation (DDRR). But the way we are doing it in Nigeria is a little bit questionable. What is done globally is that DDRR is a post-conflict peace-building strategy. You do it only when war has ended. When the war is still going on, if anybody is captured, whether repentant or whatever, you lock them up. What is done is that you try them. You don’t grant amnesty until after conviction. The person must have been accused of something, the offence must be established, and the person must be established to have committed the offence. The person is convicted, and then you can now say, “Okay, you want to grant amnesty.” The President has the right to grant amnesty or to say, for the sake of peace or whatever, that it should be granted. I interviewed an IRA terrorist in Northern Ireland. When the Northern Ireland peace agreement was reached, part of it was that the prisoners would be released. The person I worked with in that prison was eventually released. When I visited Northern Ireland, he came to see me at the hotel and took me to meet his family members. They released him not because he had served his entire term, but because, as part of the agreement, they released them. It is a strategy for ensuring that there is reconciliation. But the way we do it in Nigeria is not normal. Terrorists will kill people. If, by any chance, the terrorists are captured, then you say they are repentant terrorists. So, it is the state that is saying terrorists are repentant. It is not the terrorists themselves who are saying, “We have repented.” When you say they are repentant, you process them under Operation Safe Corridor, or you process them under the Borno model, or you process them under the Kaduna model, or you use the strategy being used in Zamfara and Katsina states. When these people graduate, quote and unquote, you give them resources again—life-sustaining resources. Some of them will either return to the battlefront or use the money to cause more problems. Some even return to kill their parents. We are not doing it the scientific way. This is the question people are asking. DDRR is a global concept. It is not Nigeria that started it, but we are misusing it.

Q: What do you have to say regarding Kanu, the IPOB leader? If you were to advise the government on Kanu, what would you say? They are saying that Igboho was granted amnesty because he is a Yoruba man. Why can’t the government extend the same thing to Kanu?

A: People are getting it wrong. Sunday Igboho wasn’t fighting anybody. What Igboho did was that he went to Oke-Ogun to ask the Fulani people there to leave. He did that believing those Fulani people were the ones disturbing Yoruba people at Igangan and elsewhere. We may say he doesn’t have the right to do that, but Igboho didn’t raise any flag against Nigeria. If Igboho was considered to be a state criminal, it was because Buhari’s administration was not happy with him. After all, the people he went to fight in the Oke-Ogun and Igangan areas were Fulani people, and Buhari was a Fulani person. When they came to his house in Ibadan, what they wanted to do was kill him. Is that a reason why he should be killed? He didn’t go to Oke-Ogun to kill anybody. The case of Igboho was highly political. When he realised that they came to his house, killed people, killed cats, killed all kinds of things, and destroyed his property, he ran away. When he went to Benin Republic, he was arrested. Nigeria wanted him brought back. Benin Republic decided to process him, locked him up, and served him a period of detention. Probably some people expected the government to arrest him when he came back to Nigeria. What for? There was no case established against him before he left. Buhari’s government declared him wanted. In the case of Kanu, if there is any major issue against Kanu, it was what was recorded against him during the #EndSARS demonstration, when he was commanding people to go and burn and destroy many places. He said several things that the state held against him. Where Kanu’s case could be said to be political and needed to be handled more carefully is that, when people are talking about repentant Boko Haram, the Nigerian state has never talked about repentant IPOB. Are we saying that IPOB too can’t enjoy the same thing terrorists are enjoying? Where is Operation Safe Corridor in the South-East, as the North is enjoying? If we establish Operation Safe Corridor for the people in the North, we expect the government to establish Operation Safe Corridor for the people in the South-East. Those who want to come out of the crisis could go there, call themselves repentant IPOB, and be treated as these other people in the North. I think that is where the matter is. The government must be seen treating Nigerians equally. The government needs to take a critical look at the issue of Kanu. I must confess that I have a few problems with the Kanu issue. There is a need for negotiation between the Federal Government and the people of the South-East. When the judgment against Kanu was pronounced, he addressed the judge in a manner that is not acceptable in the judiciary in any part of the world. He called the judge by his name and insulted him in court. You don’t set such a person free like that. Kanu himself did many things that weren’t right. There were several mistakes he made. That is why I think that, to process his case, there is a need for repentance. There is a need to understand that Kanu should apologise for some of the things he did wrong. Afterwards, discussion could start on how to negotiate his freedom. I doubt if he is ready to apologise. I think the minimum Kanu will require is for Nigeria to set him free apologetically and say, “We apologise to you.” There are several mistakes he made that must be corrected if we don’t want to crash the judiciary.

Q: What could transform Nigeria faster than many people could imagine?

A: We need to have leaders who truly love their people—what is called altruistic leadership. When I was in the UK, even in America, when I was in Pennsylvania, I saw the governor riding on the public train. In Nigeria, you see a convoy of a governor that is so big. When I was doing my national service in Sokoto, I was the political editor of the NYSC corps for that year. We were producing magazines. We were trying to present our first magazine. We agreed that it should be done by the governor. The governor said we should come to the Governor’s Lodge. That was my first time seeing how our state officials live large. When we got to the place, there was chicken and meat pie, everything everywhere, and the place was loaded. The governor spoke and they presented the magazine. Afterwards, they started feasting. We corps members waited. We said the elders should eat first. They finished the whole food. You know these Hausa people wear babariga. By the time they left, we saw the bones of chicken. We corps members concluded, “This is the reason why these people will never want to leave government.” If you saw the way they treated themselves that day, it was unbelievable. The kind of things we put at the disposal of our leaders are just too big. The perquisites of the office are so big that they will not easily want to leave power. As I was told in Abuja, being in government is more lucrative than engaging in armed robbery because they are just grabbing left and right. If public offices are made as simple as we see in the developed world, these people will not create for us as many problems as we have. Look at the case of Malami they are handling now in Abuja, over N200 billion. What does one person do with that type of asset? Malami is just one person. There are many of them like that all over the place. They have captured everything in society, and they are not using these things to bless society.

Q: Which Nigerian leader do you admire most and why?

A: The two people that I admire most may not be as admired by other Nigerians. The one I admire most is General Ibrahim Badamasi Babangida. I admire him because, when he was in government, he did many things. He established many productive institutions. Among them are MAMSER and DFRI—things that really touched the heart of Nigeria. Most of the biggest institutions we have in Nigeria today were established under his administration. The last time I met him in Minna, I asked him this question. He said everybody says that his administration was corrupt, but that he removed a military administrator because he couldn’t account for N350,000. He said the kind of money politicians are taking now, no military regime would take as much because the military is hierarchical. A state governor under the military, in the rank of Lieutenant Colonel or Colonel, is afraid of his seniors because, in the military, he can be dismissed or jailed. He stated that an average military person is afraid of doing some of the things politicians do now. But you will realise now that governors are not afraid of anybody. Ministers are not afraid of anybody. This is now a free-for-all kind of government. I have two problems with Babangida: they said he started corruption and the annulment of the June 12 presidential election. He regrets both of them. He established the Centre for Democratic Studies, which was an institution that was actually helping to build the capacity of politicians. The second person that I like is General Abdulsalami Abubakar. The fact that Abdulsalami Abubakar allowed the 1999 transition to take place is strong evidence of his statesmanship because people didn’t want him to go. They wanted him to stay like Gowon. The man promised to be in office for about 11 months and transfer power. Without him, we can’t be enjoying whatever we call democracy today. So, to me, I celebrate him for that. Why I am choosing these two people is that when I look at other leaders, you can’t pin them down to any major achievements. They just come; this one spent eight years; this one spent four years. You can’t say in concrete terms, “This is the legacy they left behind.” That is why I said, if I suggest these two people, you may disagree with me. I did the evaluation purely on technical grounds.

Q: Let us talk about leaders from 1999 to date, under the civilian administration.

A: From 1999 to date, the best president is still Chief Olusegun Obasanjo. One, criminality had not grown as much as we are experiencing now. It is as if, with every successful regime, more criminals come into the system. When Obasanjo was in government, people were still very soft. Things happened; they were taken to the EFCC or ICPC. They freed themselves. People are now learning more lessons that nothing will happen. Just take whatever you want to take. Obasanjo can still be said to be the best among all of them. Yar’Adua didn’t have the opportunity to do much. Under Jonathan, people helped themselves. When Buhari was coming in, we thought things would be better. He expanded the terrain of idle religiosity. The Boko Haram conflict expanded under him, corruption expanded under him, and now we are where we are.

Q: Which of Nigeria’s problems is easiest to solve?

A: Easiest to solve? It is only God who can answer that question. It is only God.

Q: Okay, which one is hardest to solve?

A: It is corruption. Everything in Nigeria has been corrupted. When you have corruption walking with four legs open, as we see in Nigeria, it is difficult for you to manage any sector. As I go around the country and work on different problems, I realise that corruption is our number one problem. I have many terrible examples that I can’t say in the open. Nigeria is sold out to corrupt people, and it is difficult for you to do anything in Nigeria without being ready to act in a corrupt manner.

Q: What is one book you would suggest Nigeria should read?

A: We all need to read Why Nations Fail because we don’t want our nation to fail.

Q: Peace or justice, which comes first?

A: Without justice, you can’t have peace. Peace is a big umbrella, but without justice, there is nothing to pursue. Justice comes first. When we are defining peace, we say peace is the absence of physical violence, the absence of psychological violence, the absence of structural violence, and the big one is the presence of justice.

Q: Can Nigeria become one of the greatest nations in your lifetime?

A: As a Christian, I believe there is nothing God can’t do. But as a mortal being, I doubt it. Why I am saying there is nothing God can’t do is that I have been a very active person in UI since 1994. By that time, when attending international conferences, the security people, NSO, and the rest would ask you to bring your paper: “You are going to a conference? Which paper are you presenting?” They would read the paper to determine whether you could go out or not. I have never been stopped from going out. Some of our colleagues were prevented from going out. A primary school certificate holder in security would say, “No, you can’t go.” Gradually, things started improving to the extent that today, we can say that we have professionals everywhere in Nigeria. We have many PhDs in the Army. They are very intelligent. We have people ready to develop Nigeria. What we need now is one leader who will say, “We want to promote merit.” Meritocracy should be the philosophy of governance. With this, Nigeria will begin to change. Now, nobody celebrates merit. I go to meetings in Abuja. People see me while talking, shocked, and ask, “Why are you still like this?” Let me share one joke with you. I was a delegate at the National Conference. The first day I got to the National Conference, I carried my file, and I was brought by Marwa, Keke NAPEP. We got to the gate of the National Judicial Institute. The keke rider was trying to drop me, and the security people started driving him away. The keke man said, “I want to drop Oga.” After dropping me, they used guns to threaten him and drive him away, asking me to go and settle him afar. I followed him to the other side of the road to pay him. After payment, I crossed over. They wanted to stop me. I said I was a delegate at the conference. They laughed. One of the security men, satirically, told the senior officer, “Oga, this man said he ‘dey’ this thing o.” He looked at me as if to decide whether to approve or not. He satirically asked, “Are you for this conference? Can you identify yourself?” I identified myself. As I was going, they were all laughing. I am sure they must have told themselves, “We will see all kinds of wonders and the kinds of characters they have assembled at this conference.” Something happened to me. At that conference, every evening when we finished, I would quickly go out and stay by the roadside because each of those coming to the conference was arriving with convoys of between 10 and 30 vehicles. But I was interested not in the number of cars in the convoy, but in knowing the new cars in the country. It was there that I first saw Peugeot 608 for the first time. I would wait there. When the cars were parking, I would be looking at the cars. It was like a village boy arriving in Lagos. That was how I behaved throughout. There was a Friday when one person said, “I can give some people a lift to Lagos.” The person brought a private jet. He gave people a lift. At that conference, I behaved like a village boy all through. To be honest with you. I was not supposed to be there. I asked myself, “Why am I going to arrive in this country?” I am celebrated globally as a scholar, but in Nigeria, I am nothing. Nigeria doesn’t have time for my type of person. We restrict ourselves to campus talk and grammar. It is very difficult to pay the school fees of our children. This kind of country can’t grow because those who are thinking for the nation, those who are preparing the next generation for a greater Nigeria, are hungry. They can’t feed well. Many of them are not wearing good clothes. Many of them are riding rickety cars. A colleague just told me a few days ago that he bought a car. He took a N6 million loan from the cooperative to buy the car. For how long will a professor do that? How can that person think of Nigeria? How can that person think of Nigeria? But those who are wasting these resources are the ones controlling the resources. They don’t care about what happens to the rest of us; they are holding the country by the jugular. So, we have to just keep praying. That is why I said, as a Christian, I am optimistic that God will do it. When General Sani Abacha was in government, we thought Nigeria would not change. Nigeria changed after he left. Abdulsalam came in. He is very close to me. I celebrate him because he did many things in the security sector that we still make references to in teaching our students. He was humble enough to relinquish power.

Q: Can Nigeria become Afghanistan, an Islamic nation?

A: It may be difficult. Nigeria is broken into two. The South can’t be Islamised. When people say Islamisation of the South, it is difficult. The North is already Islamic. Islamisation of Afghanistan must be rightly contextualised. When you go to Afghanistan, I have trained many students under different settings in that country. There are two types of Muslims in Afghanistan. There are normal Muslims and the radical Muslims. When you say Afghanistan is Islamised, we can say almost 90 percent are Muslims. But we have a small body of Muslims in that country who are radicals. It is these radicals that are managing the country now—the Taliban. The Taliban was prepared by the USA. The Taliban, Al-Qaeda—these were people developed by those fighting them now. They were people trained to chase the Russians away from Afghanistan but who decided to fight the West after the Russians were ejected from the place.

They broke into two. The Taliban formed the government in Kabul, and Al-Qaeda, controlled by Bin Laden, became a very big global terrorist organisation. Yes, Afghanistan is controlled by Muslims, but the Muslims are not of the same stock.

Q: Imagine you were elected President of Nigeria tomorrow morning, and you are allowed to make only three decisions in your first 100 days. What would they be?

A: The first decision I will make is to assemble the best Nigerians to rule Nigerians. As I move around this country, those of us in the South think that we don’t have brilliant people in the North. I have worked with many of the brilliant Northerners—excellent human beings. Two weeks ago, I was at the Counter-Terrorism Centre and I worked with some of them. As they were celebrating me, I was celebrating them. We will assemble the best in this country together to rule this country. When you listen to these people, you will know that they know the solutions to the problems, but they are working in systems that are controlled by the few powerful ones. Go to Sokoto, Maiduguri, you will see people who know that the prevailing system there will not deliver development. I will assemble people who know what to do. Secondly, I will give these people resources to do what is expected of them. Third, I will celebrate excellence. I did two things in the past that I want to refer to here. When Abacha died, some people drank themselves to death. They were not killed by anybody. They died in the process of celebrating the death of Abacha. They saw Abacha as a problem. They felt that with the exit of Abacha, things would be better for them. Almost the same time, King Hussein of Jordan died, and some Jordanians died mourning the death of King Hussein. I saw them on television. They cried themselves to death. Some killed themselves because King Hussein died. When I had the opportunity of going to Jordan, I took time to talk to the Jordanians. I saw on television that your people went through this anguish as a result of the death of King Hussein, and they told me that the man lived his entire life serving the people. Our delegation went to his palace to greet his son and his American wife, who I think is still the leader of the country today. We saw the simplicity of the environment where the man lived. He lived a very simple life. In that palace, we ate together. They brought rice in big bowls. All of us would sit, fold our legs and eat together. That is the tradition in Jordan. No distinction between the poor and the rich. The people felt that Hussein served them. One of the ministers shared something with me. He said there is no place where there is no corruption. He said what King Hussein did when he was alive was to give 100 percent of your resources to you as a ministry, and he would say, “Show me results for 70 percent.” He said all the development we see in Jordan is a product of people presenting 70 percent from what they were given. “You can waste, you can do anything you want to do, but please, give me the evidence of 70 percent of what you used the resources given to you.” Can we actually call any minister today and say, “Show me evidence of 30 percent”? I learnt that great lesson from them. The second one, I went to the US FBI Academy, worked with their military, and worked with different bodies. I studied them from within and outside. When Reagan was shot, the first bullet came, the second bullet came, an operative spread his chest and that terrorist was not interested in killing that operative, and he didn’t shoot. I asked, “Why would anybody risk his life for a president?” They replied by saying there is no greater honour for any security person in the US than to protect the President. That if he were shot, it is one of the greatest achievements. “Your generation can never regret that. You are doing that to a leader that you know came out to serve you.” I went to a training in Finland. I was sluggish in the morning. They asked me what the problem was. I told them that I thought I had something like fever. Immediately, they brought an ambulance. If you see the medical attention I got. They put all kinds of things on my body. They checked me. Here in Nigeria, you will find people in UCH who died because they can’t pay N5,000. So, when leaders live for the people, I think the people will become more patriotic and they will also be more alive to their responsibilities for contributing to the development of the nation. In Nigeria, people are criminally minded; they are not patriotic because they don’t think that those leading them are ready for anything. This is the problem we are facing as a people. I am not even interested in public office.

Q: What about if you are invited?

A: No, I am not interested. I have been invited severally. I am not interested. I am not even interested in becoming a vice chancellor. It is as bad as that.

Q: It is about serving your nation.

A: I am serving my nation. That was what I told them at the National Assembly when we were debating this. They said I was not patriotic, and I replied that I am patriotic. I am teaching in the university. I established Peace Studies in this country. I am still establishing more. I am writing books. I am using my intellect to develop the country. That is enough. It is not when I begin to sign papers and sign cheques that you say I am serving Nigeria. What I am doing is developing human capacity. If I am travelling out of this country today, in many African countries, I hide myself. The reason is that as I get to the counter, you meet somebody you have trained in the past. They will say, “Oga, let us carry your bag to the plane.” I tell them, “If they see you carrying my bag, they will think there is a drug inside. Please, leave me alone.” I do that in Nigeria, Ghana and many places. I feel happy. I have many generals who have retired who are my former students. I have many generals who are still serving. I have many senior police personnel. Any minister can’t do that. Leave me with what I am doing. I am happy with it. The only reason is that it contributes to my poverty, and I am happy. It contributes to my poverty because you will get nothing from it. You are given a pay package that can’t take you one week. By the grace of God, when we go outside to work, they give us little, little things, which, when you change, can actually pay the school fees of your children. Let us be satisfied with the little things.

Q: Complete this sentence: Nigeria will succeed when…

A: Our leaders and their followers become altruistic. When we think of the country first. When we place the country first before our selfish interests. The reason why the country is not growing is that we place self before the nation. This is why nothing is working. I was at the Kofi Annan International Peacekeeping Training Centre training some students when I got a call. Somebody came into the room and said, “Jerry Rawlings wants to come and see me.” “To do what?” I asked. He said he was aware that I was in Ghana. I told him to tell His Excellency that I would come to see him. The following day, another person came and said, “His Excellency will come here to see you.” I said no. I would rather go and to see him. So, a Brigadier General, who had just retired as a Major General, came to me and said, “I would drive you straight to see him.” He said, “But we need some of your books and publications. We know you are not prepared for this visit, but I brought one of your books. When you get there, present it to him.” I went there. They took me to his modest house.  He commended my scholarship. He asked all these questions you have been asking. He said Nigeria is a very great country, with great scholars and great people. He said, “But you people need to have the love of your country at heart.” We parted on the note that Nigeria will become great if we are more altruistic. After the discussion, I realised that what the man wanted was for me to write something about him. I think he became a little bit withdrawn when I talked to him about the sensitivity of his life and the need for him to break his record into two: the things he would not want the public to know and the things the public should know. I told him that I preferred to work on the things the public should know. I could see from his countenance that he had started realising that it was better for him not to talk. Not too long after that, he died. I have never seen any Nigerian leader recognising what we did and say, “Come and discuss something concrete.” It is because we don’t emphasise development. Here, people will prefer to say, “Come and join our political party,” and they want to draw you away from where you are productive to an unproductive sector. That is what we do in Nigeria. If you see anybody doing well in a productive sector, you draw them away and turn them to P.A. or to whatever. Once the person sees money, he too will stop being productive. When I travel, I see people who should be serving their nation seriously. I see them in first class. They sit down there. They have given them something useless to do.

Q: Do you have advice for your students and the upcoming lecturers?

A: I talk to my students all the time. Some of them ask me some of these questions. I remember when I was in African Studies. I was using a Mercedes 190. The cushion inside the door was already broken down. When I locked my door, it would produce an embarrassing sound. The students came to me and said, “Oga, se life ti e n live yi dara bayii?” (Is the life you are living good?) I would ask, “What is bad in it?” I will tell them nothing is bad in the life I am living. I ask them to challenge themselves to making the society in which they find themselves better. We have several of our students who have established NGOs and doing well as scholars. But my advice to my students is that they should live for something positive, which will advance the good of this country. To my colleagues, they are already working. Each of them has their developmental agenda. I don’t want to be the person reshaping who they are and what they should be. My advice is that all of us should contribute to the progress of this nation as much as we are led to.